Curse

Simath · Aug 12, 2009, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

HB makes spells cast faster, so you can get heals to spikes faster too

Spike healing is more reliant upon the players ability to recognize a coming spike and react.

Quote:

@Simath - your post is so trollish I'm not going to answer, but I'll quote this line for hilarity purposes.

Lol

Either you don't understand how to cast around Diversion, or your retort was a poor attempt to incite emotion.

Racthoh · Aug 12, 2009, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Supercharged Heal Party should only be necessary to clean up repeated group mistakes. Be it simply not taking the appropriate countermeasures ala adequate condition and hex removal, far too much balling for AoEs, or a lack of passive defense. Encounters shouldn't last long enough for those mistakes to add up however, not to the point where spot heals and longer recharging more energy efficient party heals wouldn't suffice.

Jeydra · Aug 13, 2009, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

If you had ever even monked you would know I was talking about the delay from casting Patient Spirit to when it actually heals, not how long it takes to cast.

Of course I know it's the delay you're talking about. Irrelevant. With WoH you're forced to use WoH instead of Patient Spirit because of the 2s duration before Patient triggers. What's the cast time on WoH? 3/4 seconds. What's the cast time on a HB-buffed Dwayna's Kiss? It's faster than 3/4s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Are you purporsely trying to shy away from the point being made here? Heal Party costs more energy regardless of what energy management you use. Heal Party is generally used far more than Protective Spirit and Spirit Bond.

So what if it costs more energy ... it's managable. Heck even DUNKORO can manage it, is there a reason why a human should fail?

Is your argument for Heal Party being bad that it is generally used far more often than Protective Spirit and Spirit Bond, and therefore eats up energy more? Like I said, blame the Monk for being bad, not the skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

I'm not the one who said cover my enchantments, am I? I'm saying that instead of covering them and wasting energy use a different elite skill.

And I'm saying enchantment removal is sufficiently rare as to be negligible. You're the one saying it isn't, because you keep talking about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

You call that a party power heal? After naimg several reasons why it isn't one? Namely recharge and healing for less. Also Protective Was Kaolai tends to be run more on Necromancer heroes with Soul Reaping, not players.

Party power heals are not neccessary (except in specific team builds where it's implemented in specific parts of a run). Just because they are used that does not make them essential to every area of the game. Good Monks are more than capable of keeping a party alive without them. History proves this, thusmaking them unneccessary.

Kaolai is a party heal. Heal Party is a party heal. If you agree party heals are good to have, you basically also agree Heal Party is nice to have.

If you're saying that good WoH Monks are more than capable of keeping a party alive, I'll also say that good HB Monks are more than capable of keeping a party alive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoth

Supercharged Heal Party should only be necessary to clean up repeated group mistakes. Be it simply not taking the appropriate countermeasures ala adequate condition and hex removal, far too much balling for AoEs, or a lack of passive defense. Encounters shouldn't last long enough for those mistakes to add up however, not to the point where spot heals and longer recharging more energy efficient party heals wouldn't suffice.

Some sample mistakes ...

1. Bunch of casters standing too close into Rodgort's Invocation;
2. Fighting in constricted areas vs. AoE (e.g. Forgewight);
3. Snares impeding ability to kite;
4. Walking into health degen area of Urgoz;
5. Frost Wurm showing up and hitting everyone with Wurm Bile;
6. Condition overload (e.g. Mandragors);
7. Siege attacks;
8. Nasty Dom Mesmers with Shame (e.g. Wind Riders) - no Signet of Rejuv too;
9. Trap triggers that deals ~50 damage / second while also slowing you down, so you can't run out as fast as you'd like;
10. Party member is well out of your range for whatever reason (e.g. you're running to Slaver's Exile and the party is strung out when someone gets attacked);

Not that uncommon ... sure you can go without party heals entirely, but to me at least it feels unsafe.

yCoRrUpT · Aug 13, 2009, 03:20 AM // 03:20

just tell them live with it or you'll join another team, finding player monks is impossible

btw isnt it possible to take a heal party skill, and not have to take healer's boon? or does the mouse just spaz out when u click on that

and you wouldnt even need to heal for more/faster if you're keeping them from getting hit

Burst Cancel · Aug 13, 2009, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Jeydra, you're quoting the wrong person in post #199.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Patient Spirit + HB heals more than WoH unless you are healing targets < 50% health, which you don't want to get to. Heal Party + HB heals more than WoH too, if you heal enough people

There's nothing wrong with letting people drop below 50%, and is what you should be doing to leverage the excellent efficiency of WoH. Heal Party is fake efficiency. In most situations, HP is either insufficient or unnecessary; it's completely useless against the kinds of damage that most often result in deaths (spike damage, massive boss AoE, sustained focus-fire on squishy/DP'd target). If your team is running so much party-wide damage mitigation that you can afford to spend three skill slots just to run a mediocre party heal, I can't say that your skillbar really matters - and in any case, an ER does it better.

The fastcast on HB isn't much of a benefit either, because good monking is predictive, not reactive. Furthermore, all monks should be getting fastcast on fully 36% of their casts just from weapon swaps. Finally, the WoH hybrid only runs two heals, which have 1/4s and 3/4s cast times.

Kaolai is good for a few reasons. First, you're running it on a Rit, who can afford the bar space, instead of on a monk, who cannot. Second, it doesn't constrict your elite skill choices. Third, it doesn't require its own energy management. A distant fourth would be the +10AL, or the fact that you heal by dropping something instead of casting a spell, which is not only faster but allows you to prep the heal ahead of time.

laksa and curry · Aug 13, 2009, 07:31 AM // 07:31

I agree that WOH works best when less than 50% because of the bonus. That is why hybrid bars have PS/SH/SOA, these spells prevents letal damage and more often than not WOH pushes the red bar all the way up to full again.

To pull this feat off however requires a lot more skill and judgement than pressing HP like a machine.

If you are taking AOE ele spikes, its mean that you did not flag your heros. Simply rushing into an hornet's nest hoping HP will mob up all the damage like a sponge.

Finally I think that skills of the monk matters the most. If you run a hybrid just to avoid flame in this thread please make sure you DO NOT spam WOH on 4/5 filled bars.

If you are constantly running into ambushes of AOE eles. Its time you learn to flag and pull.

At the moment i am using a ZB prot bar. It works like a hybrid. Its way more efficient than a WOH IMO. Its a "free" heal with SS. ROF > Patient spirit .

Unreal Havoc · Aug 13, 2009, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Of course I know it's the delay you're talking about. Irrelevant. With WoH you're forced to use WoH instead of Patient Spirit because of the 2s duration before Patient triggers. What's the cast time on WoH? 3/4 seconds. What's the cast time on a HB-buffed Dwayna's Kiss? It's faster than 3/4s.

Are you even remembering the point you was trying to make with Patient Spirit in the first place? Also 40/40 sets are good so I hear. Dwaynas also requires your target to be enchanted to get the most out of it, that's more energy expenditure (unless they self enchant).

Quote:

So what if it costs more energy ... it's managable. Heck even DUNKORO can manage it, is there a reason why a human should fail?

Is your argument for Heal Party being bad that it is generally used far more often than Protective Spirit and Spirit Bond, and therefore eats up energy more? Like I said, blame the Monk for being bad, not the skill.

Or run a better elite and learn to Monk properly.

Quote:

And I'm saying enchantment removal is sufficiently rare as to be negligible. You're the one saying it isn't, because you keep talking about it.

I never said it was or wasn't rare, so at least state facts and not fiction. I simply stated the fact that if you cover your enchantment (which was what you suggested) it costs your more energy.

For the record enchantment removal isn't that rare. Maybe on NM.

Quote:

Kaolai is a party heal. Heal Party is a party heal. If you agree party heals are good to have, you basically also agree Heal Party is nice to have.

Where did I agree? Also the two are significantly different regardless of both being party heals. In any event Protective Was Kaolai is not a Monk spell, heals for less, and is nowhere near as spammable. According to you.

Quote:

If you're saying that good WoH Monks are more than capable of keeping a party alive, I'll also say that good HB Monks are more than capable of keeping a party alive.

There's such a thing as a good HB Monk? Ok.

Quote:

Some sample mistakes ...

1. Bunch of casters standing too close into Rodgort's Invocation;
2. Fighting in constricted areas vs. AoE (e.g. Forgewight);
3. Snares impeding ability to kite;
4. Walking into health degen area of Urgoz;
5. Frost Wurm showing up and hitting everyone with Wurm Bile;
6. Condition overload (e.g. Mandragors);
7. Siege attacks;
8. Nasty Dom Mesmers with Shame (e.g. Wind Riders) - no Signet of Rejuv too;
9. Trap triggers that deals ~50 damage / second while also slowing you down, so you can't run out as fast as you'd like;
10. Party member is well out of your range for whatever reason (e.g. you're running to Slaver's Exile and the party is strung out when someone gets attacked);

Not that uncommon ... sure you can go without party heals entirely, but to me at least it feels unsafe.

So basically, in most cases, you run HB because either you're bad at Monking properly or you and/or your party is bad at positioning, preparation, protection, and general awareness and you're trying to accomodate for general idiocy.

As I said before HB is conditional, it's good for some areas, but as a general build it should never be needed, if it is then the Monk is awful.

Jeydra · Aug 13, 2009, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Or run a better elite and learn to Monk properly.

I like how you ask me to learn to Monk properly when I bet I can outmonk you.

I'm not going to bother responding to people who obviously do not want to be convinced. Sorry Burst Cancel.

PS:

Quote:

Originally Posted by laksa and curry

If you are constantly running into ambushes of AOE eles. Its time you learn to flag and pull.

Want to try H/H'ing Forgewight HM?

laksa and curry · Aug 13, 2009, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I like how you ask me to learn to Monk properly when I bet I can outmonk you.

I'm not going to bother responding to people who obviously do not want to be convinced. Sorry Burst Cancel.

PS:

Want to try H/H'ing Forgewight HM?

Good point but why quote 1 area in GW and make all missions and dungeons sound like Forgewight. Even if ALL dungeons are like Forgewight there is still 85% of GW that isnt like it.

H/Hing forgewight in HM is a weak argument. Unless Anet makes 99% of GW like forgewight

I know for sure you are a very good HB monk not one of those "pro leet nubs" who spam HP til they run dry. You know your stuff good for you bro. I have been reading your thread and i am sure if we pug you will never ask me to run your build and i will never ask you to change. I am as confident in my selection of skills as to you ae with yours ^^ Cheers happy healing.

Unreal Havoc · Aug 13, 2009, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I like how you ask me to learn to Monk properly when I bet I can outmonk you.

I'm not going to bother responding to people who obviously do not want to be convinced. Sorry Burst Cancel.

I like how you competely miss any point made, act like people who have been Monking for a good few years need convincing, and then try and turn this into a debate about who is or isn't a better Monk.

If you read the battlefield as badly as you read internet forums I'm surprised you get anywhere.

Oh and next time you throw out a reply you might want to get the name of the person who you're quoting right. In case you have trouble finding it it's to the left above my avatar in big letters, you can't miss it.

You're missing the point of this thread entirely. People act like HB is a neccessity to the game, a neccessity to Monking, when in reality, aside from a few specific team builds, it isn't. If you're even half the Monk you claim you are you would know this.

Jeydra · Aug 13, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

@laksa and curry - thanks for compliment

You're right that not all areas in the game are like Forgewight HM; in fact it's a class of its own with its mix of AoE, healing and balanced teams unmatched anywhere else I know. But I just quoted that area to show you that it's not always possible to pull, flag heroes apart, etc ... sometimes because of the constricted areas you are forced to fight in, sometimes because you can't flag henchmen apart and they get nuked to death first, and finally because sometimes the amount of damage montsers put out plain overpower the healing. Example: Borguus Blisterbark in HM. If you don't flag against him you'll have a lovely time, but even if you do flag (+ micro Prot Spirit and all that good stuff) I wouldn't be surprised if some people die.

You don't have to spam Heal Party until your energy runs dry, you just have to know when to use it, e.g. when your party is degen'ing dangerously for whatever reason (e.g. against Wind Riders with Crippling Anguish + Conjure Phantasm + Shame - always seems to happen).

You also have to know when HB is viable. Obvious examples of when HB is subpar: you already have another HB Monk, which means you have better options available to you, or 4-man areas.

Used properly I see no reason why HB is terrible, although of course the ultimate judge of a Monk is his ability to keep the team alive - which means so long as you can keep the team alive, it usually doesn't matter if you're running HB or WoH or UA or LoD or Boon Signet or Blessed Light (possible exception being against debilitating hexes / conditions which you might not be able to remove because of your build).

Happy healing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

I like how you competely miss any point made, act like people who have been Monking for a good few years need convincing, and then try and turn this into a debate about who is or isn't a better Monk.

If you read the battlefield as badly as you read internet forums I'm surprised you get anywhere.

Oh and next time you throw out a reply you might want to get the name of the person who you're quoting right. In case you have trouble finding it it's to the left above my avatar in big letters, you can't miss it.

You're missing the point of this thread entirely. People act like HB is a neccessity to the game, a neccessity to Monking, when in reality, aside from a few specific team builds, it isn't. If you're even half the Monk you claim you are you would know this.

I did get my quoting right. This time anyway. I quoted you and responded to you.

You're trying to act as though HB is always inferior to WoH when I certainly don't think so. There are quite a few areas where I think HB builds are more than comparable to WoH as well.

And the first sentence in your post indicates that you can't be convinced lol, so why bother?

JoeKnowMo · Aug 13, 2009, 08:00 PM // 20:00

My main issue with the HB build is the lack of bar compression. A HB bar after the 8/6 update would look something like this:

HB, Heal Party, GoLE, Patient, D-Kiss, Selfless spirit, Cure hex, Prot Spirit

No small prot, no condi removal, no block enchants. You could drop Cure hex but that's risky unless you know for sure there aren't any serious hexes in the mission/explorable. And you could be in a pug that insists on a rez so that might replace cure hex.

Party healing is handy with h/h and pugs and in certain areas. I'd prefer LoD in most areas with the exceptions being Forgewight and some dungeons.

laksa and curry · Aug 14, 2009, 12:58 AM // 00:58

My main issue when started this thread was "pro leet noob" pinging their 6 heals+gole+hp bars and saying my hybrid bars sucks. And the leader kicked me.

When I played warrior, was running godmode, had blind on me i pinged i am blinded, 2 of the hb monks did nothing, was i had the adreal deny hex on me i pinged and still nothing happened. And when an ele died in my team cos of a massive spike, i asked monks no ps? One of them replied "I am a HB monk HB=no ps"

(I do not pug a whole lot to be honest, 90% h/h. I pug cos I still love and miss the old style of playing. Which is without the use of heros. Do not get me wrg i love heros.)

But after 11 pages of generous comments from everyone. I come to a conclusion that its the player and not the monk's build (provided its not one of those silly bars).

An improved version of a HB bar:

1) HB
2) Self-less/SOA/SH/Guardian/Seed of life.
3) Gole
4) HP
5) Patient spirit
6) hex romoval
7) condition removal
8) PS!!!!!

To be honest I have nothing against HB bars. Just make sure its not those clown bars with 6 heal+hb+gole.

Happy monking everyone.^^

**Not a huge fan of HB still, but please be more humble if you still insist 6 heal HB bars are still FTW. Its your game after all, views and opinion can be made but often few are heeded.

Ccat · Aug 14, 2009, 01:12 AM // 01:12

I quite like running HB and using such cheap party heals, but NM is as far as it goes. In HM melee enemies can kill in three hits. What would a hundred health or so do against something that can whack it away twice as hard? This requires both Monk's efforts, but there is more than one enemy on the battlefield.

Imho good monking is not about healing in particular, but rather about easing the pain or stopping the damage altogether. Imagine how much you could heal them for then?

I tried HB in HM with low Divine favor since HB doesn't really scale with its attribute, with PS and SoA on the side and it was still somewhat functional, but at that point it was better to just use UA. Much more effective build there. The problem? Needs more skill to execute.

JoeKnowMo · Aug 14, 2009, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by laksa and curry

An improved version of a HB bar:

1) HB
2) Self-less/SOA/SH/Guardian/Seed of life.
3) Gole
4) HP
5) Patient spirit
6) hex romoval
7) condition removal
8) PS!!!!!

You need another heal in there besides Patient. Especially given the delayed effect of Patient. And selfless is almost a must-have skill now. So you're back to the build I posted earlier.

laksa and curry · Aug 14, 2009, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

You need another heal in there besides Patient. Especially given the delayed effect of Patient. And selfless is almost a must-have skill now. So you're back to the build I posted earlier.

Joe, you are a very experienced monk. I can tell from the intelligent threads you posted. And by your keen eye in pointing out my build's flaws.

I feel that you kind of missed the whole point of my post. The post that you quoted is not about the build but about how I feel in general. Forgive me if my poor vocabulary does not fully express the meaning intended.